Curse

Bryant Again · Jul 11, 2009, 07:52 AM // 07:52

...In regards to it's co-op difficulty system.

Yes, they're entirely different games: a third-person shooter for the 360 being compared to a party-based RPG for the PC, crazy I know. But there's one thing I found pretty interesting and innovative in Gears 2, and that's in regards to the separate difficulty settings.

In Gears 2, when playing with another player via hotseat or over the internet each player chooses their own difficulty setting. What this means is I could put my setting onto the hardest difficulty, while the other person I'm playing with can set it onto the lowest.

What this allowed me to do was play the game to my own liking and own insane and difficult fashion, while my friend who was horribly experienced with shooters was able to play with me at his own pace.

This meant that if we wanted to play with each other I wouldn't have to drudge through the lowest difficulty which I find really boring, and that he wouldn't have to get horribly ripped apart repeatedly if things were set to the highest. It allowed both of us to play the game together but at separate paces. What this ultimately leads to is experienced players seeing newer players as being less of a liability, better allowing inexperienced to play with the experienced.

Personally I would love to see something like this in GW2. The only problem is how would they do it? They are indeed both different ends of the spectrum - shooter vs. RPG - but then again it sounds a bit like GW2's going to be a bit more "action" focused.

Of course each player would have to be separately rewarded: the higher the difficulty you give yourself, the more gold/exp/whatever you should get. Vice versa if you're newer to the game.

Thoughts?

4thVariety · Jul 11, 2009, 08:44 AM // 08:44

In Gears people play NEXT to each other. So it's easy to damage different people differently.

In GW people have to play together, which gives the opportunity for exploiting such a system. For example, the monk plays on easy so that he gets less damage and does not have to worry about uber-spikes from the mobs on himself. Or worse, the Permasin tanks on easy and the rest is nuking them on hard to maximize gain while minimizing risk.

Bryant Again · Jul 11, 2009, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

In Gears people play NEXT to each other. So it's easy to damage different people differently.

In GW people have to play together, which gives the opportunity for exploiting such a system. For example, the monk plays on easy so that he gets less damage and does not have to worry about uber-spikes from the mobs on himself. Or worse, the Permasin tanks on easy and the rest is nuking them on hard to maximize gain while minimizing risk.

This is largely why I was referring to this simply being implemented in GW2. Nonetheless you do point out a few problems that could arise from such a system, depending on how the classes and combat system is set-up in GW2.

But it would definitely help to figure out how we could help remedy the exploits examples you've brought up. The problem with the monk and sin playing on the easiest setting prohibits them from getting better loots. This wouldn't be an issue if all things could be purchased via money, since the Monk and Sin in your examples could just be paid for their efforts. To help that out a bit I'd suggest that you'd also get reduced renown/exp/whatever gain (simply put: something that can't be traded) the lower the difficulty.

The assassin situation can also be fixed a bit more in fixing the aggro AI the monsters possess. I feel that having the casting range as big as the aggro range is part of the crux of the problem. Tank 'n spank is not how GW was made to be.

I'm not too sure how you'd balance healing/protection, though.

4thVariety · Jul 11, 2009, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Gears works because difficulty is nothing more than the amount of damage you take and the amount of damage you deal. Easy means your health is +100% and your damage is 100%. Normal is normal and hard is -50% health and -50% damage. Since difficulty in Gears is that simplistic, two people can play on different settings.

In GW hard means not only different level and different health for monsters, but also environmental effects (ok, that's easily fixed), different recharge, different attack speed, different reaction times and most importantly different behavior (!). Gears is lacking all these things to modify difficulty. Gears has a very simple approach to difficulty settings in that regard.

Other factors such as different spawning numbers and different movement patterns are absent in both games but always on the table as difficulty option.

The more of these factors you include into a higher difficulty mode, the more people can draw from the experience. But it also gets more unlikely for people to be able to join in on a so called lower setting. Which player triggers loot behavior? Which player triggers AoE Scatter? Which player triggers aggro? All those answers have to be answered and each solution is half-way across the foul compromise mark.

Bryant Again · Jul 11, 2009, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Keyword: "In GW"

In order to start getting a system like this to work in GW1 you would need to completely and entirely overhaul the game, properly scale and balance how each class performs according to difficulty settings, etc.

In general you'd need to have a wildly different game, with wildly different mechanics, and wildly different gameplay - hence GW2, and given the little amount of info we do know about GW2 it already sounds like it's heading in an incredibly new direction.

How will that direction fit with this separate difficulty system? Well, that's pretty much why I made this thread: to discuss how and if this would work in an altered RPG setting.

In regards to loot behavior, there would have to be something dropped - or the chance for something to be dropped - for each player in the party. This would mean that if all players got lucky they would all get a good drop. How difficulty settings could affect this are open to discussion: would it be better if settings affected the rate of getting a good drop, the quality of the drops, or both?

But what shouldn't happen is if my difficulty setting affected the rate or chance of the drops for other players.

In regards to gold it'd be easier for me to just list an example:

Two players in party, both on let's say the "Normal" setting:
-They kill a random monster
-Monster drops 20 gold
-Each player gets 10 gold

Two players in a party, one playing on Normal the other on the "Hard" setting:
-Random monster gets owned
-This time the monster drops 25 gold
-Player on Normal gets 10 gold, player on Hard gets 15

zwei2stein · Jul 11, 2009, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Eve if easy-mode player gets less rewards, with hypothetical "monk at easy, aggro holding frontiner on easy" it is easy to overcome with:

Cooperation (people would take turns in being e-zmod till everyone got what they want)

Being generous (say, whatever you would get by doing it on hard is pointless to you; you just play for fun or to help friend)

Greed (e-mode people would get compensated with something tradeable).

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 11, 2009, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Guildwars already has the option to choose your own difficulty when playing with others. Although this option translates into builds instead of a consistant game feature. Players who want to play very hard mode use less successful builds and figure out how to make them work. Those who want to play normal mode take balanced builds that are often successful but still have a large enough weakness to make it challenging. Players who want to play very easy mode take overpowered builds and walk through the game with little to no chance of failure.

We have seen how welcome this is by the minority. But the majority seems to love it since there is no shortage of rits, sins and eles, many of which tend to run what they best enjoy.

Improvavel · Jul 11, 2009, 11:50 AM // 11:50

GW has 2 settings - completed and not completed.

Once you complete something it isn't challenging anymore.

Currently I've bought a second account, only factions since I got a nice price on a collectors edition.

Without no additional money, weapons, crafting materials, titles, big armor from the let go, heroes, Pve only skills, consumables, shit is easier than ever. And I'm using a warrior with frenzy.

4thVariety · Jul 11, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Well, that's pretty much why I made this thread: to discuss how and if this would work in an altered RPG setting.

What won't work:

That's a big if you got there. You have to look at HOW it works in Gears to understand WHETHER it would work in any other game or not.

As I pointed out, difficulty in Gears entirely depends on only TWO factors. In such an environment it is very easy to give each player an individual experience without the other player not noticing or the game not falling apart.

In GW you have a plethora of factors contributing to the overall difficulty. Each of these factors has to be compatible to the system of two player receiving different values from the server.

Each of these factors is linked to a reward system. Gears does not need to concern itself with loot drops being fair and balanced in regards to the difficulty. There simply aren't any.

What might just work:

Since the difficulty is in most MMOs linked to the power curve of the player, some MMOs try to bridge the difficulty divide between players by closing the power divide. Hence a Lvl10 can go to high power areas with a lvl20 because he will be treated as lvl20 instead of his real level. Eye of the North included that concept. But with players having a numerical powercap and monsters not, that classic system of MMO power distribution will not work forever in GW.

To succeed in Guild Wars you need the right skills in your skillbar. If you do not have them, then it might just be Game Over for you. For the pimped out character the whole game is very easy due to his skillbar and the added experience of the player makes it laughable easy. Those are the two factors impacting the difficulty the most. If I could "lend" a skillbar from my arsenal to another player it would help him far more than endless tweaking of monster spawn, behavior and droprate. Hence hardmode with henchmen is nearly impossible, while hardmode with Sabway is relatively easy.

Just like in Gears, there is something an inexperienced newbie can do in order not to get overwhelmed. But it is not pushing a slider to easy. It's listening to more experience players, seek out the skills they suggest and listen to their advice how to play and position yourself in battle. That is one tall order, though. Usually the one thing people do not want to be told is how to play the game better than they currently do. If they fail, they blame the game, quit it and buy another one. Being able to lend your Sunspear (etc.) rank to other during battle, or give them access to your skills for a mission would just be the cherry topping.

Fril Estelin · Jul 11, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

What this allowed me to do was play the game to my own liking and own insane and difficult fashion, while my friend who was horribly experienced with shooters was able to play with me at his own pace.

How does GoW2 allows 2 people to play the SAME match/game at difference pace? Sorry Bryant, but I don't understand what GoW2 does different from the GW2 suggestion (as done in EotN) to boost the low-level, but it's probably because I know nothing of the game.

zwei2stein · Jul 11, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

How does GoW2 allows 2 people to play the SAME match/game at difference pace? Sorry Bryant, but I don't understand what GoW2 does different from the GW2 suggestion (as done in EotN) to boost the low-level, but it's probably because I know nothing of the game.

In Gears, dificulty affects how much damage you recieve and how much damage you deal.

It basically means that easy setting player can leeroy game by blowing enemies up and by easily tanking damage while hard setting player has to kite enemies while he chips pieces of health away.

Since dificulty only affects player and not anything else, players of different dificulties can play together.

Sidekicking is something different, it allows player to gimp himself or boost friend to equalize dificulty so that they are both "at same page".

Bryant Again · Jul 11, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Guildwars already has the option to choose your own difficulty when playing with others. Although this option translates into builds instead of a consistant game feature. Players who want to play very hard mode use less successful builds and figure out how to make them work. Those who want to play normal mode take balanced builds that are often successful but still have a large enough weakness to make it challenging. Players who want to play very easy mode take overpowered builds and walk through the game with little to no chance of failure.

This is not how it's done since there's 0 encouragement to learn more about the game. It's like if games started coming out with God mode being activated on default or giving you max resources and all unit tiers at the start, and that's just plain dumb.

Challenge is not about hopping on one leg instead of two or fighting with one arm. It's when you have the best tools on hand and it's *still* difficult.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

To succeed in Guild Wars you need the right skills in your skillbar. If you do not have them, then it might just be Game Over for you. For the pimped out character the whole game is very easy due to his skillbar and the added experience of the player makes it laughable easy. Those are the two factors impacting the difficulty the most. If I could "lend" a skillbar from my arsenal to another player it would help him far more than endless tweaking of monster spawn, behavior and droprate. Hence hardmode with henchmen is nearly impossible, while hardmode with Sabway is relatively easy.

Hm...This times a billion.

While it's generally safe to assume that GW2 combat is indeed going to be a bit more action oriented, ANet would essentially be blasting themselves with a shotgun in the foot if they ditched the skillbar system. And it would be very save to assume that builds are gonna be insanely paramount to your success.

If I could honestly start doing something like this in Guild Wars, that would be one of many things I could see happening that could really give a boost to playing with others.

Zodiac Meteor · Jul 12, 2009, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Good idea, but there is one flaw.

Example: Playing on HM while I monk in order to get more cash/rares etc. BUT, I don't want to be flamed as a person dying a lot mainly because I want more cash, costing the team the mission with a monk at 60DP.

In GoW2 the system is simple:
Harder = Less damage deal, more damage taken.
It only affects the player, not the environment.

In GW the system has to much stuff:
Harder = More money, more rares, higher armor, faster casting time, faster attack speed, higher attributes.

This drastically affects environments, players and monsters.